What's a California title worth?
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What's a California title worth?
Posted: July 10 2008 04:11 PM
 
Eric Hibbs (aka 31tudor) [ View ] [ ehibbs@nuteltech.com ] [ Car Ads ] [ Blogs ]
St. George, Utah
(435) 668-1401
 Eric Hibbs
 
Well I guess it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it, right?


Since I ditched the original A chassis, I had a sheriff over last night to give me some instruction on VIN verification and such. Long story short, it's a HUGE P.I.T.A. to have re-certify the car with the original VIN because it's stamped on the old chassis. Bunch of red tape and paperwork BS, so I'm just going to apply for a new VIN. This is one piece of paper, a state issued VIN tag, safety inspection and $35. Yes, it will be titled as a 1931 Ford Model A Tudor Sedan, not that it matters much to me.


So, I have my original 1931 Ford Model A Tudor Sedan title from the grand state of CALIFORNIA. A few years ago a very nice gentleman (from California) contacted me to sell it. He offered me $1000 for it, mailed the check, and wouldn't you freakin' believe it, I couldn't locate the title! Ugh, divorce and moving around kept me from finding it. I mailed the check (un-cashed) back to the gentleman with my apologies.


Fast forward a few years and I'm holding this title again, but don't need it. I think the $1000 offer was awfully high, but that was HIS number, not mine. I don't believe we can sell titles on ebay, can we? What's a fair price for such a title?
 
 
Comments
 
Posted by ol bear  -  07/10/2008 04:20 PM
contact jim mothershead hed know ,, ol bear
OL BEAR [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] crown point, Indiana
 
Posted by Starfire  -  07/10/2008 04:37 PM
I'm not sure where you get the idea an title for a vehicle with showing the same numbers as stamped on the frame/chassis is worthless. Just because a state may inspect for numbers on the chassis does not make that title worthless it probably needs to be used in the transfer from California to Utah if that is what you are doing regardless of an inspection and certified verification the number on the chassis are correct and you are the correct owner.

A title that doesn't match numbers on a frame is just about worthless without the car to go with it. Today, all registrations from all states can be accessed by any other state. So a really nice mess is created when the same chassis/vin numbers show up belonging to two individuals in two different states. You can bet both parties will be getting a visit to determine which is for real, or if there is a stolen vehicle involved. My eldest daughter runs this kind of registration search across state lines several times a day and sometimes people end up going to jail because they ain't the real owner.
Starfire [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Weimar, Texas
 
Posted by jnestep  -  07/10/2008 04:39 PM
California? 1 to 5 !!
jnestep [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Lewiston, California
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/10/2008 04:43 PM
Thanks Les, I figured Jim would jump in here sooner or later.

Hey there Starfire, I never said the title was worthless, only that I didn't need it. The original chassis is junk and will be cut up. Regarding California titles, those who I've spoken to said that the title is the important piece of paper and that Cali's DMV will let you re-register the car with another title. Since A's VIN numbers were stamped on the chassis and cast into the motor, and streetrodders rarely use EITHER the title seems to have some value.

Jnestep... is that 1 to 5 hundred? 1 to 5 thousand? Or 1 to 5 YEARS???
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by jnestep  -  07/10/2008 04:45 PM
YEARS !!!!!!!
jnestep [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Lewiston, California
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/10/2008 05:17 PM
Got it Les, thanks dude!
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by Starfire  -  07/10/2008 05:23 PM
Admittedly, I misread what you were thinking of doing. However, before you get any ideas about selling a California title to someone anywhere it is advisable to look at the given state's title transfer mandates and how you as a seller of a title (the state(s) consider there is a real vehicle with the serial or vin number sited on the title) are obligated to certain reqirements. You can find California's requirements at:


http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/vr_info.htm
Starfire [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Weimar, Texas
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/10/2008 05:27 PM
Some clarification on my statement about "re-titling". I'm referring to car construction that would be titled according to the BODY, which has no VIN attached to it. This would entail a COMPLETED car, new chassis, different motor, no VIN, no previous registration on record. This wouldn't be a case of fraud or misrepresentation, clearly stating to the DMV that "I have a title, here's my car with no VIN number. Can we make it work?"


This is not my area of expertise, ONLY what I've heard from other California rodders regarding what has worked for THEM.
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/10/2008 05:28 PM
Yep Starfire, thanks. The buyer of the VIN would be mailed the original VIN number literally CUT from the original chassis.
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by da34guy  -  07/10/2008 05:31 PM
Hey Starfire--- What about non-title states?? Like NY, RI, Mass Al, And a bunch more

Better do sum more homework B4 ya over load Ur mouth again.
Don [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Prescott, Arizona Charter Member since October 2001
 
Posted by Starfire  -  07/10/2008 06:06 PM
da34guy you are a bit behind the times guy. Better check these sites out if you think the states you mentioned do not have vehicle title and registration requirements.

Alabama: http://www.ador.state.al.us/motorvehicle/registration.html
New York: http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/
Massachusetts: http://www.mass.gov/rmv/forms/title.htm
Rhode Island: http://www.dmv.ri.gov/documents/forms/TR-1.pdf

Of these states only Rhode Island is weird having no titling of vehicles over ten years of age. However, regardless of age the application for registration for any vehicle of any age requires a VIN number and verification of ownership.

All states, repeat all states have requirements for verification of ownership and records of vin numbers if a vehicle is registered (licensed to be on the street) whether they may have a formal titling process or not. So you had better check your facts before running off at the keyboard.
Starfire [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Weimar, Texas
 
Posted by 29robert  -  07/10/2008 07:39 PM
Eric. Are you sure your original frame had a number stamped into it? Model A's didn't have VIN numbers. They didn't exist back then. The only numbers I know of on original Model A's were just serial numbers for the engine block that were sometimes used on the vehicle registration forms. I also have a valid California title / registration for my 29 Tudor and the number that appears on that form is the serial number that was on the old engine (which is being used as a boat anchor somewhere). My plan is to get a VIN tag with that number from Jim and attach it to my new chassis. I've kept the registration current, but non-operational. throughout the build. I hope I can just go to the Auto Club and switch the status from non-op. to operational.
29robert [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] La Verne, California Charter Member since November 2004
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/10/2008 08:09 PM
Yep Robert, the so-called VIN was actually a serial number stamped into the top of the frame rail, just below where the driver sits. Partial disassembly was required to see it. This serial number matched the serial number on the engine block... usually. There were supposedly a few that didn't match, but the frame was stamped after the motor went in.


The stamp on the frame was end-cased with a 5-pointed star... one on each end of the number. Immediately following the left star was an "A", and if I remember correctly a seven digit serial number, followed by the right hand star. Kinda like this: *A1234567* but not asterisks... kwim?


Although not technically a VIN, this is what the DMV uses for a VIN. Probably because the people at the DMV just don't know any better. :-)
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by 29robert  -  07/10/2008 08:51 PM
Interesting. Maybe things changed from 29 to 31. I didn't find anything at all on my original frame, but then I wasn't trying very hard since I had planned on getting rid of it right from the jump. My engine also wasn't original to the car so that serial number didn't match anything else. All I know is that the title was transfered from the former owner to me, I've got registration forms going back quite a few years, and I've kept the registration current throughout the build. What else do I need to do when I change it fron non-op to operationsl status. Its still registered as a Model A. I'll, of course, change the insurance at that time as well.
29robert [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] La Verne, California Charter Member since November 2004
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/10/2008 09:02 PM
Dunno about changing status, but as far as I know all A's, 28-31 were stamped the same. Many of the stampings weren't very deep, each character was about 1/4" tall. I'll see if I can find more info.
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/11/2008 12:32 PM
Okay, grabbed some 120 grit and started sanding away the Eastwood Chassis Black, Eastwood Chassis Red Oxide Stop Rust Primer, and found the VIN (or serial number). This sits partially under the body brace where the front of the seats attach, which is why I said that partial disassembly was required to see it. In the bottom of the photo you can see the body mount. Does this help clear things up?


Also, I still have no idea what a fair price would be for the title. Anyone?
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/11/2008 12:34 PM
BTW, the I mentioned the Eastwood cuz it came off pretty easily, UNLIKE a professional paint would have! I'm not impressed, but let's not turn this into an Eastwood discussion.
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by oilmanpat  -  07/11/2008 03:00 PM
Hey wait a minute,that's my serial no. NOT really,just kiddin. I was at an auction of an old Ford dealership a couple of years ago and watched a stamp that makes the star at the ends of the number sell for almost a grand. I wonder what that individual was planning on doing with it? there were three other people bidding so there must be some use for it. HHHHHHHHHHHHHHuuuuuummmmmmmm!!! It seems that they used to apply some of the numbers at the dealership. I know that Plymouth used to issue new titles for cars that didn't sell from year to year. But this was back in the 20's and30's.
oilmanpat [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Warsaw, Illinois Charter Member since August 2007
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/11/2008 03:05 PM
LMAO, yeah I knew someone would say something like that. Last night I was looking around for pictures like the one I posted so I wouldn't have to go out and sand mine away. While searching around I found a few references to SOMEONE on fordbarn.com that was selling these stamps, including the star. I looked but never found anyone there selling these.


VIN tampering is a pretty big offense and I wouldn't want to play that game! we seem to discuss VIN's quite a bit here and so often I've heard "just stamp it in there, nobody will know the difference." True, but "what if?"
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by cr55  -  07/11/2008 03:16 PM
Eric, murphys law!!!!!...CR
I thought that I knew it all , but.. [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] dover, Delaware
 
Posted by orphans2  -  07/11/2008 03:19 PM
In the very early years (1928 - 1931) Plymouth, as well as some other manufacturers, probably did re-titled their left over cars, changing the year of manufacture, especially when the models did not change drastically. However by 1934 (possibly earlier) Plymouth was mounting a serial number on the passenger side B pillar or door frame. These were not engine numbers as the engine was numbered separately.

Eric the way you have chosen to go may be in fact easier and less paper work, but it may take longer. I basically followed the same path in PA for my 34 title/vin and the process took about 6 weeks.
orphans2 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Stewartstown, Pennsylvannia Charter Member since November 2001
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/11/2008 03:31 PM
Actually here they said it's just the opposite, a "new" title takes 3-5 business days. Re-registering takes 6-8 weeks!


So anyone wanna throw a number out there? I certainly don't want to gouge anyone, but I shouldn't leave money on the table either! Just wondering what a "fair" sales price would be.
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/11/2008 04:15 PM
Spoke with Jim on the phone. He's had trouble posting to threads in the last few days.


He's clearly convinced me that applying for a new VIN is not the best way to go. I'll be taking the California title to the DMV and wait the required length of time to get the plates. This way there will never be any confusion regarding the origin of the car, liens, or anything else. The original number will stay with the car.


Thanks for your time Jim!
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by da34guy  -  07/11/2008 06:01 PM
Good move Eric.

I've never had a problem here in AZ and U know how many I've done in the last 3 1/2 year

I think the newest is # 15 or 16

Stopped countin @ 12

BTW The mail came

Thanx

Don
Don [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Prescott, Arizona Charter Member since October 2001
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/11/2008 06:25 PM
Back from the DMV. This really is going to be pretty simple... cheap too.


Thanks for all of the input everyone, especially Jim Mothershead who gave me 15 minutes of his time!


Nope Don, thank YOU! Everyone have a great weekend!
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by jimmothershead  -  07/13/2008 08:38 AM
Hey, Eric......
this is the correct title following the VIN since it left Henry's in Detroit. Utah will assign a new number that will be 2 miles long and not a Ford A VIN.....move or sell it to a different State that is VIN concious like Arizona = you will never get it registered. Not to mention all the yata, yata you will go thru in 6 months, plus big buck fees, maybe a bond, several flaming hoops.
For the past hundred years , folks have been changing engines and frames. If your Grandad wrecked his Model A, needed another frame, he got one fron a Buddy that blew the engine. Henry, Louis, & Walter changed engines and frames back in the day. If the Ford dealer replaced your Grandad's frame in 1933, the new frame did not have a VIN.
The Ts & As have the VIN on the engine and clutch/brake brace. In the thirties, the VIN location gave way to a flattie. In the fifties, a Olds or nail head, ditto. Late Fifties to date a SB Chevy. Many a rodder bought a new TCI chassis for their steel body....kept the original title and VIN.
If you were at Good Guys Columbus today, I bet half the steel and glass cars have my VIN plate some where. Ditto in a few weeks at the Nats in Louyville.
Don't get pulled over for a burned out taillight, then have the cop check for a VIN that he can't find. Next he will call a $300 roll back.,,,sorry, you loose.
$15 will cure your ills.
Keep kroozen, Jim, 410 535 1933
Oh, yeah, the guy that offered you a cool grand for the title, I need his phone please. I have a super good deal on a bridge in Brooklyn New York.
Jim [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Huntingtown, Maryland
 
Posted by JAWS  -  07/13/2008 12:10 PM
Not related to your model a Eric, but I just had a similar situation with my old new chopper.


The title is from Kansas, the motor cases have the remains of the original numbers. I got the bike mostly complete and started take it apart for the redo, before I had the inspector come out to verify the numbers. Bad idea! I hurriedly reassembled the bike for the inspector before he came by. Upon seeing the complete bike together the way I got it, and barely making out some of the numbers, he told me this was the best way to verify the bike or car. He could see it was a real Harley and not some mismatched parts claiming to be.

Which it is real, the frame and motor are different decades, but when complete it is considered a bike. And the out of state title said it was a Harley not a custom build.

He gave me his business card with a note he scratched to remind him of the bike and the deal, along with some other papers for the title work. Told me to bring it all to him when the bike was finished for the safety approval and that he would issue the title then. I could even change the frame out if I wanted he said or engine or whatever and it would be considered the same as changing wheels, as the bike when he saw it was complete, not a pile of parts that I said went together.



I said this for the benefit of others buying projects to build. It is best to do the paper work when the car is still complete before you disassemble it. You may be telling the truth, but there are those who aren't and the inspector is just doing his job to make sure you are covered and the state as well.


Brant
An electrical headache can make a great car a pain [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Boise, Idaho Charter Member since August 2004
 
Posted by maniac  -  07/13/2008 04:24 PM
Connecticut is NOT a title state, they DO NOT issue titles to anything over 25 years old, I have NO title for my 38 Chevy other that the NC title which is where it was last registered, when I registered it here in Ct I had to jack the car up outside the DMV and point out the serial number so they could verify it.

When I showed the inspector the NC title he told me it was not needed, and I would NOT be getting a Ct title.

They also do NOT issue titles for anything non-powered, trailers etc.

maniac [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bethel, Connecticutt
 
Posted by jimmothershead  -  07/13/2008 09:19 PM
Maniac........the VIN plate on your '38 chevy should have been on the right cowl. Never seen one under the a '38 Chevy. Where was it?
You need one of my plates.
Jim
Jim [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Huntingtown, Maryland
 
Posted by robymarks  -  07/14/2008 05:17 PM
Jim Mothershead. Where does one mount your plate? On the frame or the body? 37 Ford Thanks MRR
robymarks [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Houston, Texas Charter Member since October 2005
 
Posted by jimmothershead  -  07/15/2008 11:05 AM
Roby........a officer pulls you over for a burned out tail light. He will check the VIN. He is loaded with all kinds of gear that will scratch that nice paint when he leans over the fender. So, under the hood is a no-no. Yes, on the door jamb between the hinges.
Jim, 410 535 1933
Jim [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Huntingtown, Maryland
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/15/2008 06:43 PM
Cool idea! Make 'em lay down on the hot or wet pavement to see it! LMAO


Thanks all for your help. I've learned a lot!
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by da34guy  -  07/15/2008 06:49 PM
Which way ya gonna do it?
There's always my $51.50 way.
MY SECRET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Prescott, Arizona Charter Member since October 2001
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/17/2008 11:36 AM
Well it cost me a few more dollars than your way, $57.38 and I have the Utah VIN tag and Utah license plates on it already! Again, thanks for everyone's help.


The deal with the Utah VIN tag is that since there wasn't any identification on the body or chassis State of Utah gave me a little silver tag to affix to the A-pillar. Its stamped with the original VIN from my title. Piece of cake!
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by maniac  -  07/17/2008 07:53 PM
Jim, mine IS on the right cowl, but I stamped the numbers into the frame myself, they said the real number tag (mine is an original) looked fake, so I showed them the numbers I stamped in, which they accepted.........state employees.....................LOL
maniac [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bethel, Connecticutt
 
Posted by rodder4lf  -  07/17/2008 11:31 PM
Hey all NC guys I have a question. I am considering buying a 1968 Caprice wagon. The car has a Georgia title. The title has been signed, or is open. The car has no engine or trans. I have a 67 283 engine that I would be using but is not original to this car. What kind of trouble can I expect from the old NC DMV and what kind of hoops will I have to jump through?



Thanks!
rodder4lf [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Marion, North Carolina
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  07/18/2008 12:02 PM
Maniac, I don't care who ya are that's funny right there!


I don't see that you would have a problem with that Caprice. I don't think the DMV cares what motor you've got in there, as long as the title matches the VIN tag in the windshield. You should be fine!
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
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