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Ray Whitaker (aka scooting) [ View ] [ scooting@flash.net ] [ Car Ads ] [ Blogs ] Elkridge, Maryland

Running the 40 around DC, heavy stop and go traffic, temp that on a cool day is 160 and on a normal day is180, starts to get pounded by 2 feet at a time 6 lanes wide traffic. The temp runs up to about 205 and makes it. When I park, (back to 180 but a 95 degree day with high humidity) I flip off the fan on the radiator and go in to get the mail. Come out and starter goes CLICK. Lucky, on the third time it comes to life. This has happened a couple of times before when I park to get gas or some other short time before starting. Always after a hot run, but after cooling down, will start normal. Does not seem to be a lack of starter power when it does come on after 3rd or 4th CLICK. Question; How come? Is the starter heat soaking and it is becoming too hard to push the gear to the flywheel? Or is the battery heat soaking and not as strong? Or is it cables and connections? Futher information, the battery is two months old - a 5 year normal battery - and it lives in the engine compartment firewall above the passenger exhaust. The cables were put in new at the time of the battery and routed along the firewall to the starter. The starter is x years old (x is old enough that I don't remember when). Motor is a 327 Chev, 2.02 heads, mild cam, cast exhausts. (Photo has old battery in it, but shows location) Where do you think my problem is? Suggestions?

Comments

Posted by Starfire  -  07/02/2008 03:19 PM This sort of thing commonly happens when a Chevy engine is placed in a Ford. The body doesn't like it and shuts down all the grounds............ Seriously, it could be any or all of the things you mentioned. Easiest way to diagnose is to take it to a parts house and get a FREE starting circuit analysis. Starfire [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Weimar, Texas   Posted by DH9185  -  07/02/2008 03:32 PM I'd start first by installing an inexpensive heat shield on your starter (assuming you don't have one now). Even if that's not it, a shield helps prevent heat soak and prolongs the life of the starter. If you already have a shield, then I'd pull it and get it tested. The battery appears too far away from headers to be impacted. Make sure all your cable connections are clean and tight, this will frequently cause the "clicking" to occur. DH9185 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Lubbock, Texas   Posted by hotrodgene  -  07/02/2008 04:48 PM I had same problem on a P/U some years ago and after two starters,new cables,battery I had a mechanic tell me to insulate it.I used the same insulation that builders put on floor of their car before carpet,I attached with tie straps and large hose clamps that I put together and that fixed the problem for me. Gene Riffe [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Saint Petersburg, Florida   Posted by Italianguy63  -  07/02/2008 05:16 PM Check connections. I had one that did this, and it was caused by oil/grease getting into it and making the contacts on the solinoid not engage. To fix it (short term), I would have to whack the starter with the wood part of a hammer. Ultimately, it had to come apart and be cleaned. Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida   Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  07/02/2008 05:53 PM insulating retains heat in the starter. a shield is ok but a new starter will fix the problem. i use gm goodwrench starters. dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003   Posted by amswuod1  -  07/02/2008 06:50 PM Shine has a valid point in that regard. Maybe "insulating" is the wrong term. How about "heat deflector shield"? Sorta like sparkplug / exhaust manifold heat deflectors. If the headers are too close to the starter "cool" air flow is nil and the starter soaks the heat. After shut down for a while it will cool off and function normally. Assuming all connections are clean and tight. Just a thought. Bob D. Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult. [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Union, Kentucky Charter Member since July 2006   Posted by JAWS  -  07/02/2008 08:17 PM You want me to give you the long drawn out technical reason or just want me to tell you to get a new starter. If I go into it it will be long winded........I'm trying to save your eyes and brains before the 4th holiday weekend....... Chances are if you take the starter off and go have it tested it will test fine, but in actuality it wont be. With the exception of a really close quarters for the starter and exhaust, like Gene's and maybe some others of you, there is a true technical reason. An electrical headache can make a great car a pain [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Boise, Idaho Charter Member since August 2004   Posted by farmer  -  07/02/2008 10:52 PM I've had this problem before and fixed it with a starter and then a heat shield and heavier cables and a better ground but nobody ever told me why! Enlighten me electrical wizard. farmer [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Carthage, Illinois   Posted by sellersrodshop  -  07/02/2008 10:56 PM sounds more like the solenoid than the starter. if thats the case & the problem persists, you might check into one of the ford type remote solenoids. sellersrodshop [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] old hickory, Tennessee   Posted by scooting  -  07/02/2008 11:43 PM Thank you for all your suggestions. I have cast rams horn exhaust, the old larger dia ones, so they turn down in the center. Only the begining of the tail pipe passes by the starter, and not to close at that. Many of you are correct in that I do not have a heat shield on the starter. With the cast headers, I did not think it necessary. But when I raised the hood tonight after the drive, WOW, I am holding a lot of heat in the engine compartment. I will add the shield per your suggestions. The cables are larger dia, new, and tight. One passes close to the exhaust pipe. I think they are ok. Sounds like a new starter, with shield, should be my 4th of July weekend project. I will open up another can of worms (like carbs), which starter would you suggest? Thanks again. Oh, this morning, little girl in very used putt putt car wanted to be in front of just one more car. Car in front of me, car behind me, and myself locked up all fours and I don't think you could have put a piece of paper between any of our bumpers when we came to a stop. We all sat there for a moment and she drove merrily down the road. In 68 years this '40 has never had a dent and I thought it was going to be a very small squashed sandwich filling. Oh, I love this drive! scooting [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Elkridge, Maryland   Posted by Starfire  -  07/03/2008 12:50 AM Buy a "NEW" GM Starter, or you could have yours rebuilt by a known quality auto electric shop that will do the job right. Most production re-builders make the bad mistake of not always replacing the oil lite bronze bearings in a starter meaning within a few days the same old problem is back when things get heated up and wobble from worn bearing shows up causing the armature to bind against the stator. Starfire [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Weimar, Texas   Posted by JAWS  -  07/03/2008 01:20 AM Ok, So there are two windings in the solenoid. 1. is the pull-in winding, which does just that. By energizing the magnet around the plunger it pulls in the plunger which in turn pushes out the drive to engage the flywheel, by way of lever action. The pull-in winding is grounded in the solenoid, and powered by a switched source( push button or starter switch) 2. winding is called the hold-in winding, which holds the plunger in position as the pull-in winding is small and can't sustain the amps. It is larger winding and can handle sustained current. It keeps the plunger engaged, which keeps the drive in contact with the flywheel. It is grounded by the solenoid or rather in the solenoid and is powered from the contact plate, which is connected to the plunger, when it contacts the upper main battery stud which is where the battery cable is connected. That said, the motor power stud has a contact pad on the opposite end inside the solenoid cap. It is placed usually at the bottom on most starters and has the band or cable that runs in to the starter motor. It gets it's power when the contact plate which is connected to the plunger, contacts the main battery stud above it, making a circuit between the top and bottom stud. This circuit is grounded to the case through the brushes contacting a commutator "bar" which is connected to a winding wrapped around the armature and back to another bar which is 180 degrees from it. When one bar is contacted by a brush the other one 180 degrees from it is contacted by the other brush and then to the case for ground completing the motor circuit. This circuit creates a magnetic field that is opposite polarity to the magnets inside the motors case just above and around the armature. Causing a reaction as magnets do to "push" away from each other and/or pull from the other side. This force causes the armature to rotate, direction depends on polarity. Hence motor. Whew! all that said, if the brushes are not making good contact on the armatures commutator bars, then the circuit is not complete and is open, therefore no motor movement which wont spin the drive that is engaged in the flywheel. Most likely suspect is worn brushes. Ironically if you "tap" the case you can "reset" the brushes and the circuit will be made. Same thing happens when you pull it out and take it to the auto parts store and they and/or you knock it around on the ground and counter and test bench. As with anything electrical there is arcing, which also plays a role, both in the solenoid as you can imagine and the bars on the commutator. This arcing removes material from the brushes and the bars making connection worse over time. Heat also can cause resistance in the circuits. Lets not forget no or bad connections at the batt cable stud will cause problems also. The click you hear from the starter area is the solenoid "pulling in" and the drive making contact against the flywheel. no connection then happens in the motor circuit or the motor would spin the drive and the engine would turn over. As a side note, a solenoid that "chatters" is due to low voltage. The number one killer of starters is low voltage. Ohms law states lower voltage increase amps. Think welder and arc. How do you make a hotter arc and consequently melt metal and move it around, that's right more amps. As you would suspect, a the contact plate can and will "weld" itself to the contacts in the solenoid and therefore keep the motor circuit powered. Vicious cycle, as we know the starter motor draws high amps and will bring the battery voltage down even more. Same thing will happen if the battery cables aren't adequate for carrying enough amps for the draw of the starter. That and battery condition, amp rating or actually amp supply. Don't forget the ground too! Same thing. That's good for now. -Brant An electrical headache can make a great car a pain [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Boise, Idaho Charter Member since August 2004   Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  07/03/2008 07:58 AM i have never ran a ford solenoid on any of mine. i have run bb chevies with 14:1 comp. i have always grounded to the frame. i use new gm starters not rebuilt junk from autozone or any other junk store. every starter problem i ever had was a worn out starter or a weak batt. all the shields and header wrap in the world wont change a bad starter or batt. mini starters are junk unless gm. i do not trust any after market starters or alternators. i've changed enough of them. jmo dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003   Posted by sach  -  07/03/2008 09:02 AM I agree with Shine, New GM starter is the only way to go, for best results. I've worked in GM dealerships for over 35 years and have seen those aftermarket rebuilt starters with very low hours on them and they are trash. sach [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Cana, Virginia   Posted by amswuod1  -  07/03/2008 11:26 AM Brant, That reminds me of - "ankle bone connected to the shin bone connected to" ... Great input on the workings of a starter. I had to learn all that in my freshman year of high school in auto shop, where we actually tore down and played with starters and generators and reassemble/test each one. I just can't remember when that was Bob D. Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult. [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Union, Kentucky Charter Member since July 2006   Posted by JoeP  -  07/03/2008 11:40 AM Shine would you have a part number for mini gm starter with staggered bolt pattern? Went the hold route with larger cables, four ground connections, hot shot starter relay, still hope it starts on the first hit. Joe Joe [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Somerset, New Jersey   Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  07/03/2008 11:44 AM that i will have to look for. i have no memory and wouldn't trust it anyway. i still read the tech sheet on paint every time. dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003   Posted by jimmothershead  -  07/03/2008 12:17 PM Hay, Ray.......too much info for pen pals. Call me at 410 535 1933 in your back yard. Jim Have a great Indepenence Day folks Jim [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Huntingtown, Maryland   Posted by dwalters  -  07/03/2008 03:21 PM "Jaws" gave a very good description, but I think he has the two windings reversed. The pull-in winding grounds by way of the brushes andd is the heavier of the two. The hold-in winding is grounded by the solenoid case and the lighter of the two. It requires alot more energy to pull the plunger in than it does to hold it in place. dwalters [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Shell Knob, Missouri   Posted by farmer  -  07/03/2008 06:42 PM Brant, Thanks for the education. We need a good local rebuilder ever think about relocating to the land of floods, tornados and ice. farmer [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Carthage, Illinois   Posted by dixie  -  07/03/2008 07:36 PM like shine said new gm starter trouble gone,have one on my 400 hot are cold it does the job. jim grace [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] dade city, Florida Charter Member since January 2006   Posted by JAWS  -  07/04/2008 01:00 AM dwalters You're right! I am glad you straightened me out....... I always get those two confused An electrical headache can make a great car a pain [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Boise, Idaho Charter Member since August 2004

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