rubber or polyurethane bushings?
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rubber or polyurethane bushings?
Posted: January 14 2008 10:25 PM
 
Ken Heising (aka Ken_tech) [ View ] [ Email ] [ Car Ads ] [ Blogs ]
Fairfax, Virginia
 
My rod needs engine and transmission bushings, as it has none. :( My local shop says polyurethane are needed and has made no mention of using rubber bushings. I have read that rubber bushings are prone to deteriorate pretty quickly, but that poly are as not cushy and tend to squeak. Are polyurethane the better or more appropriate part for my street rod? 39 Coast-to-Coast body on C-to-C frame. I don't need them to last forever, as I think I will drive this car no more than 5,000 miles over 3 years or so. Do they make polyurethane bushings that don't squeak? I have enough squeaks now, and don't need any more.

A rod & custom shop to install engine and trans bushings would require 2 hours of shop time? or more? Er, they would bill 2 hrs labors or 3? The work is beyond my capabilities.

I tried the search engine before posting this, but it's not working for me........

thanks, Ken
 
 
Comments
 
Posted by scooting  -  01/15/2008 08:20 AM
Wow! That expensive of a car and it is solid mounted? I am shocked. Have you looked yourself to see if the trans and motor are really solid mounted without rubber blocks, washers, or bushings? I would take the time to do that.


Poly bushing will often squeek if they are in a position where they are stressed under movement. Think of a bushing in your steering linkage that would be moving a lot, it would have a possibility of squeeking. A motor mount or transmission mount would only have push/pull stress put on it and not be as prone to make noise. So I would think poly would be not be a great noise contributor in those positions. Being stiffer, they will transmit more vibrations/frequency changes from the motor to the frame than a rubber mount. There is a reason that rubber mounts have been used for years in most of the factory cars, not just cost. If I were you, I would use the rubber mounts, your car appears to be one of luxury and I would want it to not sound like a tacked together piece. Again, I would want to see myself that there are solid mounts first. Reminds me of some of the clowns on the TV programs building high dollar cars/bikes.
scooting [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Elkridge, Maryland
 
Posted by ol bear  -  01/15/2008 08:49 AM
THE PRICE SOUNDS FAIR ENOUGH , ID PREFER THE POLY MOUNTS SHOULD BE UNDER 100.00,,FOR PARTS , NO SQUEAKS HERE ,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,OL BEAR
OL BEAR [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] crown point, Indiana
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  01/15/2008 03:10 PM
I looked at the engine mounts, took a pic, and dug up some pics when I bought the car. See link below. Dunno if one can tell what is used in the engine mount, but seems big enough for some kind of bushing. Let me know what you think. Thanks for the input so far. regards, Ken
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
Posted by glrchotrods  -  01/15/2008 04:39 PM
From the pictures it looks to be done proper. If it is squeeking see if you can tighten it some more. (poly mounts squeak) Get it on the street and enjoy that car!!
glrchotrods [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Toledo, Ohio
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  01/15/2008 07:19 PM
37Tin and Glrchotrods,
You guys are right! I went back out to the garage and dug my thumbnail into that lip on the interior edge of the bushing and it is hard rubber! So, the engine mount bushings are rubber. I'll be damned! Yay!
I will have to ask my local shop what the hell they are looking at. My mechanic said it needed poly bushings. He did say it was hard-mounted -- that is not the case.
Before I touched it, I looked at that lip on the bushing and thought it was metal. Now I feel kinda foolish. Thanks to you guys for telling me to "go take a closer look!"
Many thanks, Ken
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
Posted by dixie  -  01/15/2008 07:14 PM
Ken u already have rubber mounts in your car, man go enjoy it , u might try spraying them with a rubber lube .
jim grace [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] dade city, Florida Charter Member since January 2006
 
Posted by 37tin  -  01/15/2008 08:11 PM
MAN....your car is nice!!!...BUT...since it needs so much work ,I'll take it off your hands, just sign here/..............................
37tin [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] langley, Canada
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  01/15/2008 09:29 PM
Tin, Thanks for the compliment. I looked for a long time before I found this one -- on the other side of the country -- the car was in Eugene OR and I live in VA.
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  01/23/2008 10:01 PM
37Tin and all,
I went down to my local shop and ask about my engine and trans mounts. My mechanic said the trans is hard-mounted and the engine has rubber bushings, but they are solid mounts, so to speak. See 2nd pic. The mounts he recommends look like these -- 1st pic. As you can see, a completely different design and I'm told they shouldn't/won't have the harshness of solid motor mounts, i.e., my current ones. Sounds reasonable imho. Ken
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
Posted by dixie  -  01/23/2008 10:15 PM
i still think its ok from your previous pictures ,it can't b all that bad is it? those are really nice motor mounts in there now, lots of giys running that type,the other type you show are just regular stock motor mounts. you can get those anywhere. And i'll bet you will end up with more than 2 are 3 hrs labor hope your frame ant powered coated. good luck.
jim grace [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] dade city, Florida Charter Member since January 2006
 
Posted by 1carguy  -  01/24/2008 03:25 AM
I've had a lot street rods and several of them had squeaks that I had to track down. Most turned out to be body/suspension related noises but I never had one that squeaks were coming from engine/trans mounts. Are you sure that is the source of your noises? Before I spent a lot of time and money on these, I'd soak them down first in penetrating oil and see if that didn't stop the noise problem. If it doesn't change, I'd look elsewhere. If it does stop the noise, I guess you're on the right track. BTW, killer looking car, the colors are awesome.
1carguy [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Pleasanton, California
 
Posted by roadsterboy  -  01/24/2008 01:58 AM
Ken, Don't change your motor mounts!! The only thing that will change is your bank balance. We use both of those mounts here all the time with no problems. If your reason for changing them is a vibration look for something (engine/trans) touching the floor. If it has a lokar shifter make sure there is plenty of clearence around main mounting bracket running down the center of the trany. we have fixed a couple of vibrations caused from that. Looking at your pictures you do have a mount on the trans. The bottom of the pan is setting to high in relation to the trans crossmember not to have a mount. I'd bet if you look close there is a urethene mount there. Hope this helps Let us know what you end up doing. Mike Snyder Street Rods 402-463-1940
roadsterboy [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Hastings, Nebraska Charter Member since June 2003
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  01/24/2008 11:20 AM
Dixie, Carguy, Mike,
Thanks so much for your input on my situation.
First, I don't have a squeak problem coming from the engine/trans. My mechanic's recommendation is to change out the engine/trans mounts to lessen the engine/trans vibration. And he was responding to my complaints of significant vibration under hard acceleration.
Secondly, this is my first street rod, so I have no baseline for what is normal for engine/trans vibration. Cruising is fine. Under acceleration, there is vibration, but it is not objectionable. I certainly can live with it -- I am not eager to spend $500-600 to lessen it. With your comments, I am not convinced that this mod needs to be done at all. When the weather warms up and the local rod shows start up again (April), I will have some fellow street rodders ride in/drive the car and find out how bad the vibration is.
Lastly, when we get a warm-for-Jan-or-Feb day here, I will get the car up on my ramps and take a look at the trans mount.
Thank you all for the info and assessment of my situation.
best regards, Ken
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
Posted by robymarks  -  01/24/2008 06:13 PM
Ken,


Very nice car! Did I see that advertised somewhere? You mentioned Eugene OR and it rang the bell.
robymarks [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Houston, Texas Charter Member since October 2005
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  01/24/2008 06:48 PM
Thank you Roby.
It was on eBay during the last week of August 2007. Sold by Summers Car Co in Eugene OR. Really good outfit! I had a very nice trip out there to see the car and finalize the sale. They did good by me.
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
Posted by dixie  -  01/24/2008 06:53 PM
Think your doing the wise thing. keep us posted.
jim grace [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] dade city, Florida Charter Member since January 2006
 
Posted by harpo1313  -  01/25/2008 06:07 AM
try putting the car in drive ,hold the brake on while giving it some gas and see if it vibrates,basicly torqing the motor and trans in its cradle,if it does replace the mount bushings with what is ther already,if they are polyurithane your gonna get more vibes than rubber,but rubber has more flex so it could be suspect too, if it does have a trans mount[with that caliber car im sure it does] just chech you bolts,the mount itself should be fine as they are not a quick wearing item unless defective,hope i made sense here ,good luck and post back with you results,inquiring minds would be interested harpo
harpo1313 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] wareham, Massachusetts
 
Posted by 1carguy  -  01/25/2008 10:30 AM
One other thing I just thought of you might consider...with very close quarters in a hot rod engine compartment, make sure nothing is 'grounding' when the engine is torqued such as exhaust, engine brackets, belt driven accessories etc. Something touching the body or frame can cause a horrific vibration and/or sound.
1carguy [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Pleasanton, California
 
Posted by Starfire  -  02/01/2008 07:58 PM
Just a thought, but is why is everyone certain this vibration isn't from the engine stumbling due to timing related issues or valve adjustment issues? It might also be from fuel delivery issues, particularly if using an electric fuel pump that is not maintaining proper fuel pressure during hard acceleration. Attempting to "cushion" the vibration out, is not really addressing what may be the real problem.
Starfire [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Weimar, Texas
 
Posted by Starfire  -  02/02/2008 09:51 AM
37tin you are right, nothing like the roar or throb of a great exhaust to take a bunch of years off your life.


But getting back to Ken's problem/situation I guess I or we don't really know enough about the circumstances at which these squeaks occur. Nor do we know things about mods to the engine and tranny from stock to really be of much help. This is one of those things when getting behind the car and attentively listening to the exhaust at differing RPMs might be very beneficial. Just because it gets down the road and sounds neat with a tromp on the pedal does not mean it is 100% right. If the engine has even a mild cam in it a valve adjustment being off just a bit can cause one hell of a vibration without actually causing a noticeable miss fire.


I did notice one thing in the pictures that seemed a bit unusual and perhaps a source of squeaks and mild banging around. There is a bracket (gold color) of some sort which is using the pan bolts for mounting and it looks precariously close to an exhaust pipe.
Starfire [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Weimar, Texas
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  02/08/2008 08:41 PM
It was fairly warm day yesterday, so I put the rod on ramps and tried to crawl underneath. Took these pics, with much difficulty. My mechanic told me the trans was hard mounted. This is a shot of the mount towards the rear of the trans. If I am not mistaken, it looks like a rubber bushing in there. Is that a rubber bushing?
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
Posted by dixie  -  02/08/2008 09:01 PM
Ken i though we had already been this route already ,yes yes its a bushing in there . but if you really waht to think its not ok. Ken if you want a really super quite car your gonna have to go buy a 2008 model, man its a streetrod ,none of them are perfect. hope you can learn to enjoy it,because it really is a beatiful rod.


Have fun on your run---------DIXIE
jim grace [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] dade city, Florida Charter Member since January 2006
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  02/08/2008 09:13 PM
Dixie,

We looked at the engine mounts before. We couldn't see the trans mounts.

I certainly can live with it, as long as I know there is a bushing in there,i.e., it was built properly. When my mechanic said it was hard-mounted, I took that as a "flaw" in the build of the rod. But seeing a rubber bushing in there, I am relieved and satisfied. The rod is pretty rough ride-wise, but I am used to it now. I'm good to go. Thanks for the compliments on my rod.

best regards, Ken
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
Posted by DavyJ  -  02/10/2008 09:06 PM
Ken, definitely a stock style tranny mount in there. i would not spend any money on trying to fix what ain't broke. just keep looking for any items mounted to close to the frame or cross members that may transfer the vibration. After the first ten thousand miles it will all feel normal. As for the rough ride, the suspension is based on a Mustang which is supposed to give you sports car feel and ride.
Still driving the wife's car, cause I am slow. [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Niagara Falls, Canada Charter Member since February 2005
 
Posted by aosborn  -  03/29/2008 01:02 AM
Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents...The mounts look fine, you are good to go there. If you want to lube a urethane bushing, only use silicone grease, other lubes will go away quickly and can eat into the material. Rancho makes a good lube for urethane bushings. As far as the ride quality of your car, most streetrods I have tested and worked on were oversprung and overdampened and rode alot stiffer than they needed to. If your shocks are adjustable, go full soft on the adjustment(s) and take the car for a drive to see if that is better, and then go from there with spring rates. In most cases a large improvement can be made. Tuning is the key to a great car!
aosborn [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Olympia, Washington
 
Posted by JAWS  -  03/29/2008 08:47 AM
I have to agree with most of the comments above. For certain you have a well mounted engine and from the looks of it the shop who built the car did a great job.


It's normal to feel a "vibration" of sorts under load as all the weight is being transferred to the rear. The suspension, and really the whole of the drive train are being put under more stress and are moving so to speak into their limited maximum positions, which differs from where they are when under normal cruising or idling. If that makes sense. What you are feeling is the torque and horsepower being "applied" in a greater than normal amount to the whole of the car, as it fights for traction. Ya' gotta love that feeling.

Power to weight ratio also plays a key role in this, as your rod is lighter and has more power also, in comparison to a factory car combination.

It's a feeling that new car manufacturers are trying to eliminate and have for years since the muscle car era. Those big blocks really could put out the power, despite the weight and they really didn't idle all that smoothly and vibrations were there for sure. So was the fun............The factories are using rubber and fluid type dampeners along with the motor mounts or a combination of sorts. This style of mounting combined with lots and lots of sound deadener and quiet exhaust systems, makes for a quieter, smoother car.

Let's face it, we don't exactly have the quietest exhaust systems put on our cars when we go to the muffler shop................ Sound also causes harmonics which will result in a vibration. Especially under load when the loud pedal is depressed.............

Physics is fun.........................


-Brant
An electrical headache can make a great car a pain [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Boise, Idaho Charter Member since August 2004
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  03/29/2008 08:02 PM
Aosborn, JAWS,
thanks for the input, guys! I will take a look at the shock settings and see where they are. If set on hard, I will soften them up, if I can get the appropriate tool and apply it.
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
Posted by jimmothershead  -  03/30/2008 01:58 PM
Hey, Ken.....what are your symptoms? Vibration? Clunking? I have over 200,000 miles and 36 years on my 1972 Chevy van....rubber trans and engine mounts are original. '33 delivery mounts are original '85 Iroc rubber mounts...just fine. My Wild Rod...identical chassis & manufacturer as your C2C, has rubber trans and poly engine....no problem in 3 years.
Jim, just over the Potomac River from ya. Cell 410 474 2244
Jim [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Huntingtown, Maryland
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  03/30/2008 02:22 PM
Jim,

This whole post started because I was incorrectly told by my local shop that my rod had no engine or trans bushings. They said hard mounted. I found that astounding. So, I started the post here. Guys here said "go look" and I did. That's when I posted the pics of the engine mounts and trans mount -- which are standard issue rubber and they are fine, per the guys here (who I trust).

The car runs fine on a smooth road (don't they all? !!) but over a pothole or washboard road, it is very rough. There seems to be very little travel in the suspension. I know street rods are not very refined, but my suspension is pretty damn hard.

I think I need to come see you. First nice weather day, I think that looks like Wed or Thurs. I will call you to see if you have time to drive it/look at it. You are 49 miles away. That's a hour, but I need a nice drive in the MD country! Thanks, Ken
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
Posted by jimmothershead  -  03/30/2008 08:17 PM
Ken.....Sunday, April 6th, is the 22nd Comming Out car show in Charlotte Hall, Md. Expect about 600 rods, customs, muscle, Vettes, rats, stockers, street machines. Trophies, live music, door prizes, swap meet, food. TIn Maryland, this is the second largest car happening to Ocean City. Hit the Beltway over the WW. South on Route 5/Branch Ave to Charlotte Hall, at Golden Beach Rd.

Look for our black Wild Rod parked by a black '35 packard lux0rod, and a diamond white Downs '37 Ford coupe and probably 4 others.

Keep kroozen, jim, cell 410 474 2244
Jim [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Huntingtown, Maryland
 
Posted by Ken_tech  -  03/30/2008 09:16 PM
Yes, I know where Charlotte Hall is. Sounds like a nice show! I might have to meander down there. I will recognize your Wild rod, but I don't know if I have ever seen a black '35 Packard lux0rod!
Ken_tech [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Fairfax, Virginia
 
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