Strut rod question - Need help!
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Strut rod question - Need help!
Posted: December 02 2007 07:38 AM
 
Mark Chiampi (aka Italianguy63) [ View ] [ italianguy63@yahoo.com ] [ Car Ads ] [ Blogs ]
Bartow, Florida

 Speed is about how fast do you want to spend!
 
I am to the point of attaching the strut rod on the Mustang II IFS in my '36 and need some advice. I know the strutrod pivots on an imaginary line passing through the bolt that attaches the lower A-Arm. To make the strut rod have a place to attach-- it is heated and bent outwards so it centers under the frame (I'm OK on that part). My question is -- Is it advisable to bend the strut rod upwards also to get it closer to the frame? Mine is pretty low off the frame (4.25"). It makes sense to me for strength reasons to get it closer, but will that adversely affect the geometry? Or, is it no big deal? Thanks in advance - Mark
 
 
 
Comments
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  12/02/2007 08:47 AM
Shine-- Not trying to be disrespectful or not listen to you-- It is very apparent you know your stuff. But, there are pros and cons to both setups. I decided to go with the stock A-arms. And yes I have read that they will crack around the frame if you don't weld the piss out of them and gusset them-- but the point there is that they absorb a lot of load there. Properly done-- this should be stronger. Anyway-- lets just suppose you were doing it this way.. would you bend the struts upwards a couple inches or not? MC

P.S. Thanks for talking me into the new crossmember-- it helped significantly.
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by Rods & Customs by Leon  -  12/02/2007 09:08 AM
No,!!! don't bend the strut rod, you will create a bind as the a-arm travels, Basicly it works on the same geometry idea as the steering link from the rack...Seriously........Loose the strut rod and use full lower a-arms.
Rods & Customs by Leon [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Highlands, Texas Charter Member since May 2004
 
Posted by fordorfrank  -  12/02/2007 09:12 AM
Are you using an aftermarket kit or are you using a front end from a Mustang and installing it yourself? I installed a Heidt's kit in 1989 with strut rods and the attaching brackets provided by Heidt. At the time I thought their gusseting scheme could be better so I added a second gusset and made it long enough to reach under the beginning of the "X". These struts do take a lot of force and I wanted to transfer it to the "X". I have had no problems in 18 years and 50k miles. If you are using a kit follow the manufacturers directions and user their strut attaching pieces. Additional reinforcing is probably a good idea. If you are using an entire front end from a Mustang, you should probably try to approximate the original geometry. The large rubber bushings at te end of the struts will give you some flexibility, physically and literally.
fordorfrank [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Melbourne, Florida
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  12/02/2007 09:58 AM
Unfortunately I am strapped for time and money. I started my new job last week-- I am now commuting and burning a good part of my evenings in the car. I need to sell my house pronto (and have an eager looker). May be moving in 30 days or less. That being the case-- I have to get this crate "rolling" again so it can go into storage. Frank-- I used a "kit" so I will have to do as the manufacturer instructed (and I won't move the fulcrum of the strut rods). I will gussett the hell out of them. Unfortunately Shine I chucked the OEM strut mounts when I disposed of the original "parts" Mustang subframe. I guess I will just do this thing, hope for the best, and revisit it in the future if I have to. Thanks for all of your input though!!


Mark
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by carpro1946  -  12/02/2007 11:33 AM
Make sure that your a arms are level before you weld the struts in.
carpro1946 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] hebron, Maryland Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  12/02/2007 11:39 AM
Thanks CarPro-- I knew that!
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by pooch  -  12/02/2007 04:07 PM
Leon and shine have been doing this for a while, better listen to them ! expecially when it comes to stg and brakes you don't want to put any one in jepardy. porch dogs will bite!
pooch [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] albany, Oregon
 
Posted by iajonesy  -  12/02/2007 09:08 PM
I'll add my 2 cents worth here too. The stock type strut rods tend to allow the lower a arms to flex way too much and the result is cracking in the s/r mount area on the lower a arm and around the frame mount too. A good tubular strut rod will ride up and down with the suspension as it travels and keeps the lower a arms swinging in the arc that they were intended to. In the long run you will have far fewer problems and expense using tubular strut rods. Just something to think about.


Freezin' my ASS off in Iowa

Mike
iajonesy [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Lisbon, Iowa
 
Posted by BigAlBre  -  12/02/2007 09:47 PM
note... if you use the tubular upper and lower control arms you don't have to use a strut rod..... I have the cheapest (and strongest) non tubular ones that Heidt's makes and they work just fine....this is from Heidt's web site....

Economy Upper A-Arm


Economy Lower A-Arm

Finally, Mustang II Full A-Arms for the budget builder. Heidt's Hot Rod Shop has designed cost conscious control arms for the builder who does not require the high tech look of tubular control arms but wants the ease of installing custom full A-Arms on his Mustang II I.F.S. The upper arms are a direct replacement for factory arms. The lower A-Arms have the same wide triangulated spread that Heidt's full tubular lower A-Arms do, so they need no strut rods. Formed from 7 gauge steel, the same as their Mustang II crossmembers, they are super strong. They come complete with the ball joints and bushings installed, and with all the hardware and spacers ready to install.
Big Al sittin back pickin & grinning in paradise. [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Saint Petersburg Beach, Florida Charter Member since June 1999
 
Posted by APLUS  -  12/02/2007 10:34 PM
I ran the stock strut rods for several years with no problems and a friend has ran them for around 5 years with no problem. I now run tubular full width control arms since I switched to Air Ride ShockWaves. With that said, if I was starting from scratch I believe I would go with the full lower control arm from the get-go. Just my 2-cents worth.......


iajonesy, we had a temperature of 85 degree's here in Austin today. Tomorrow it'll be cold--a high in the 60's.
APLUS [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Austin, Texas
 
Posted by bigdude  -  12/03/2007 09:17 AM
Anybody other than me ever had cobbled up strut rods let loose? Funny thing about the use of brakes and changing lanes with those!
resident know it all [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Three Rivers, Michigan Charter Member since January 2004
 
Posted by fitzwell   -  12/03/2007 10:33 AM
Funny thing...got stock MII stuff under the 46& strut rods. No breaks, cracks, no muss no fuss. Truck has about 20 k on it, and has survived the backroads of Louisiana on a couple of trips. Front clip was done by someone that actually kneww what they were doing, and has been flawless. Not to be a butthead about it, but as a good friend of mine has reminded me (many times)....

"Ford spent millions of dollars engineering this stuff, who are you to second guess them."
normal?? Normal is a cycle on a washing machine [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] benbrook, Texas
 
Posted by BigAlBre  -  12/03/2007 11:10 AM
Ford also spent millions on the Edsel hehehehe I think the strut rod was probably a fix to a bad idea..... just my 2 cents
Big Al sittin back pickin & grinning in paradise. [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Saint Petersburg Beach, Florida Charter Member since June 1999
 
Posted by fitzwell   -  12/03/2007 02:02 PM
Wonder what they spent on the '32
normal?? Normal is a cycle on a washing machine [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] benbrook, Texas
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  12/03/2007 07:49 PM
Like I said there are pros and cons to both systems. The strut rod system is acutally stronger-- but obviously from the posts if they are not affixed to the frame properly, or the geometry is off-- then they are inferior. I have also seen that the elimination of the strut rods (using tubuler A-arms) shifts more strain to the crossmember and can cause catistrophic failure there too... I think the point here is that "informed" folks prevail! Thank you everyone for your input-- I will let you know how it all turns out for me... MC
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  12/04/2007 06:44 PM
Yeah shine I had seen where they fail without the extra welded tubing-- some folks add a small square of boxing on the end of the open crossmember too. I guess Heigts had a couple of failures (which was ultimately blamed on poor workmanship of the installers). I assume you know about it as the stories I'm sure have made it around the Internet.
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by maniac  -  12/07/2007 02:23 AM
I have over 100,000 miles on an all stock M2 with factory strut rods on a Heidts crossmember, NEVER any cracks or problems, did not have to bend anything to make it work either.
maniac [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bethel, Connecticutt
 
Posted by 27ratrod  -  12/07/2007 03:25 AM
My '46 Sedan has a Heidt's crossmember, stock Ford Must II upper and lower control arms with Mercury Bobcat struts. No problems in 35,000 miles. Oh, and dropped spindles and Yogi's 350 lb springs.
Papa John [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Warrens, Wisconsin
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  12/07/2007 09:33 AM
Sorry guys-- not trying to freak out the Heigt's folks! The point was if you don't properly affix the strut rod (or omit it), the stresses that are usually absorbed by the strut rod are transferred to the pivot point of the lower a-arm at the crossmember. This happened a couple times (that my research had found), and ultimately it was found the failures were caused by installation problems and not a problem with the product. Heigts makes first grade stuff. My "final answer" is that either style solution will work-- but you have to do it right. Nothing is failsafe if you screw it up! MC
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by 27ratrod  -  12/07/2007 11:50 AM
Amen!
Papa John [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Warrens, Wisconsin
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  12/07/2007 02:57 PM
i only need to see 1 failure to raise a red flag. over the last 30 years i have seen many and heard of dozens. enough for me. i also will not do a cut and but clip. i know cars that are 30 years old still going but that doesn't change my opinion of this method. i personally do not use the mll anymore. never liked it but mostly because i dont like rack and pinion steering. to be honest i prefer the axle to the mll. when i give an opinion it is just that. my opinion based on 30 years of doing them and talking with other builders about problems we've had. funny thing is just about every builder i know stopped using the strut rod years ago. especially the set up with a 1/2 chunk of iron to weld to the frame. getting penetration on it is tuff without making the frame brittle . sorry but welding the piss out of them is exactly why they crack . it is a bad design. putting thick metal to thin with the stress to the thick. plus the bushing was designed to sandwich 1/8 so most are over tightened taking away the shock action of the bushing and putting the stress on the frame. this is just an explanation of my opinion on mll struts . papa always said opinions were like money, best to keep it to yourself. guess i will try his way for a spell. yall take care now .
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  12/07/2007 10:39 PM
Shine your opinion does not fall of deaf ears. I appreciate your input very much. MC
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  12/26/2007 04:40 AM
I've decided to NOT bend the strut rods at all. I think it is more important to keep the pivot point on the imaginary line that passes along the bolt in the lower A-arm. Hence the pivot point will be a inch or so inside the frame rail. This will require some additional fabrication to get it welded in. I worked this weekend with lots of cardboard and scissors... got it figured out. Back to cutting steel and lining up the welder. MC
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by LeeBee32  -  12/28/2007 09:38 PM
Mark, If you place a long rod the diameter of the lower control arm bolt through the holes where the lower control arm bolts to the crossmember. Then that rod must line up directly in the middle of the strut hole to get the geometry correct. I have then had to heat up the strut rod on the flat part where it bolts up to the lower control arm to bend it to work correctly. Let the strut rod cool slowly. I have done this a few times and been O.K. My car is still running that way after 15 years of driving, stock MM II crossmember and suspension. Jim
LeeBee32 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Lincoln, Nebraska
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  12/29/2007 02:31 AM
Thanks LeeBee... That's a good trick.. And it confirms what I ultimately decided was "right." The folks here may think I am kinda slow.... but I will get it right eventually. I am "self-building" a rod here myself. I am not a professional builder. I am also not of the mentalily of "just spend $500 on that" everytime an issue arises-- it gets darn expensive fast. I'm using what I got. Thanks for the help!


Mark
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
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