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Posted: November 08 2007 05:13 AM
 
Dennis Rasinski (aka zinski3) [ View ] [ razoo@wildblue.net ] [ Car Ads ] [ Blogs ]
Edwards, Missouri
 
Ok, here's my request. I took the wife's Buick out tonight for a ride. 50 degrees, about 5PM. I get a few miles into the run and the temp is at 180. I drive for about 20 miles on country roads, then into a town and hit a stop light. Temp goes up to 190. Get going and the temp drops back to 180. Drive 20 miles like this and stop for gas. After the temp naturally goe sup to about 220. Fan comes on and gets it back down to 190-193. Drive another 25 miles with the outside temp a little cooler and the engine temp stays there. Get home, let it idle in the driveway, temp goes to 205 with fan on and stays there. I open the center hinged hood and in a couple minutes the temp goes back to 190. Close the hood and the temp goes back up to 205. My thinking is I am not getting the air out of the engine compartment, But can't understand why it ran at 180 for so long. Running a 350 with aluminum radiator. What do you guys think? Dont want to start cutting the inner fenders yet before getting a few ideas if I am right or wrong in my thinking. Thanks
 
 
Comments
 
Posted by zinski3  -  11/08/2007 05:13 AM
Sorry about the long winded explanation, hoping it gave everyone all the needed info.
zinski3 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Edwards, Missouri Charter Member since December 2000
 
Posted by Rods & Customs by Leon  -  11/08/2007 05:20 AM
I think you posted you topic in the summery box, Its not coming up
Rods & Customs by Leon [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Highlands, Texas Charter Member since May 2004
 
Posted by zinski3  -  11/08/2007 05:27 AM
Yeah, I did. Had to retype and was getting low on beer so it took a little while to get it right.....................I hope!
zinski3 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Edwards, Missouri Charter Member since December 2000
 
Posted by Rods & Customs by Leon  -  11/08/2007 06:13 AM
You probaly know that this is a common problem on a lot of Street rods.... I got one idea that may or may not work, If you have a manual fan with a shroud make sure the fan is 2/3 its depth into the shroud. To deep or to shallow will cause it to cavitate air, causing it to circulate the hot air with out forcing it out. also make sure that the engine bay is sealed off from the front side of the radiator that way your not pulling in any hot air.

If you want to post some pictures of the engine compartment I'll be glad to offer some ideas if I get any
Rods & Customs by Leon [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Highlands, Texas Charter Member since May 2004
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  11/08/2007 12:13 PM
make sure the thermostat is working. sounds like it may be hung open.
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by bigdude  -  11/08/2007 01:50 PM
Ran out of beer--------same ol' Dennis
resident know it all [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Three Rivers, Michigan Charter Member since January 2004
 
Posted by zinski3  -  11/08/2007 02:23 PM
Thanks guys. I am running an electric puller mounted near the top of the radiator. I put a new 180 thermostat this summer thinking the same thing Shine did. because it ran rather hot this summer going to Frog Follies. I sealed as much of the area in front of the radiator off trying to direct as much air into area as I could into the radiator. I do not have a shroud on the radiator. I was thinking that a lot of the shrouds have those flaps that open when running down the road to get air through the radiator in my mind the shroud would be needed for lower speeds. I think my problem runs more in the going down the road vein. I guess I could try that next. One of my buddies said thatt maybe the bottom hose is collapsing going down the road, as mine does not have the spring in the lower hose. It seems that is something that does not happen that much anymore. I will try to post some pics later...........................after I get more beer, Big!!
zinski3 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Edwards, Missouri Charter Member since December 2000
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  11/08/2007 02:56 PM
most that i build will do the same. fan on at 205 -off around 195. the days of 160 degree is long gone. i worry about cold motors. 200 is just right for burning todays gas.
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by zinski3  -  11/08/2007 05:26 PM
I agree Shine but my problem is getting to stay in that range. This summer, when it was 95-100, I could not get it to run down the high way at less than 220-230. Forget about turning the air on!. I am adding some pics showing the driver and passenger side and the distance between the fan and the front pulleys. I added some sheet metal at the top in front of the rad to deflect air into it. There is a gap on both sides about the size of your fingers and it tapers to 0 at the front. The sides have the angle mounting bracket and that blocks off most air on the sides. The bottom is fairly open. Hopefully the pics will show.With this pony express dial up, you just never know.
zinski3 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Edwards, Missouri Charter Member since December 2000
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  11/08/2007 05:56 PM
check your timing. with an aluminum radiator and that fan you should never see this.
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by Eliot Ness  -  11/08/2007 06:35 PM
I remember you talking about this after the Follies. Didn't you mention it would actually run cooler after you got off the highway? If it didn't run that hot before something has changed. Like Shine suggested I'd check your timing at idle and also the advanced timing after it warms up. Also make sure that lower hose isn't collapsing....... that's a pretty cheap and easy fix. You also might want to buy or borrow a laser temperature gun and make sure your gauge or sender isn't going flaky.

I sure wouldn't start cutting out inner fenders, especially if the same car, with the same same set-up, use to run normal temps. It's not too uncommon for a car to run cooler with the hood open, mine does the same thing if I just let it sit and idle for a long time.
John [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Lexington, Kentucky
 
Posted by amy14760yahoocom  -  11/08/2007 08:50 PM
just a thought i had a car that had one of those chrome half shrouds on it and it too would over heat on the highway . then i had a old timer tell me to change the thermostat again for we all know things are made to break i did that and he said retighten the fan belt i did . then he came over with a small piece of plastic and made me a small air damn for under tha radiator like the new cars have . he went onto explain that the air would go under the car instead of through the radiator the air damn redircts the air upwards and forces it to go through radiator . the thing is i don't know which rep i done cured the trouble for i done all 3 things now all day long it's at 190 i also was told sometimes those half shrouds create more turbulances than helpful air . good luck bob in ny
amy14760yahoocom [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] allegany, New York Charter Member since July 2005
 
Posted by Eliot Ness  -  11/08/2007 07:34 PM
Another thought Dennis, you had a few problems at the Follies like a fan relay go out and some tranny problems correct? Did the car run normal temps before or on the way to the Follies? Can you make a mental time-line of any repairs that were done right before this started? That fan relay replacement keeps nagging at the back of my mind and it would be nice to know that you're getting full volts to the fan.

You and Bob are correct that a shroud will only help at low speeds.

Bob, your friends idea of an air dam sounds interesting and might be something I play with over the winter.
John [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Lexington, Kentucky
 
Posted by zinski3  -  11/08/2007 11:07 PM
The car always ran on the warm side. I will try checking the timing tomorrow. The Buick has a lower piece of sheetmetal the tries to deflect and air coming through the grill up into the radiator opening. What do most of you set SBC's at for timing? I was thinking between 4 to 6 degrees BTDC. Sound right?

Bob, those were all the things I did also. New thermostat, tighten all the belts, etc. Only thing Ihave not checked is the timing. Maybe the rodding Gods will smile on me and give me an easy fix.

Any other ideas will be appreciated.
zinski3 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Edwards, Missouri Charter Member since December 2000
 
Posted by Rods & Customs by Leon  -  11/09/2007 12:29 AM
Now that I had the chance to see the pictures, Its doing exactly what it should be doing with that setup. Everything is working fine. If its running good I wouldn't mess with the timing. If you reposition the fan and add a shroud that pulls air through all of the radiator, that will cure your issue. Once the area out side the fan you have heats up theres nothing cooling it, thus it builds heat and won't drop to its full cooling capability.
Rods & Customs by Leon [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Highlands, Texas Charter Member since May 2004
 
Posted by A3  -  11/09/2007 12:45 AM
I HAD A 37 FORD THAT DID THE THING. I CHANGED TO A COOLING COMPONTENTS FAN/SHROUD AND IT RAN COOL ANYTIME A/C ON OR NOT. LOTS OF OPINIONS OUT THERE, JUST PICK ONE AND HOPE FOR THE BEST.GOOD LUCK, AND LOOKS LIKE A REAL NICE CAR.
A3 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bloomington, Indiana
 
Posted by Eliot Ness  -  11/09/2007 01:02 AM
<< Now that I had the chance to see the pictures, Its doing exactly what it should be doing with that setup. Everything is working fine. >>

Leon, what about his highway temps of 220- 230 when it's hot outside? I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how some of you guys handle street rod cooling and at what temps you start getting concerned. When I've added a shroud (even with the highway flaps) it has helped my temps at idle/slow traffic, but added a few degrees on the highway.
John [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Lexington, Kentucky
 
Posted by Red's Place Custom & Restoration  -  11/09/2007 01:27 AM
want it to run alot cooler ad an auxilary engine oil cooler and lower the engine temp by around 10 to 15 degrees.
Red's Place Custom & Restoration [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Charlotte, North Carolina
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  11/09/2007 01:37 AM
high temp at hwy speed is usually lower hose collapsing or retarded timing. unless your running 3k rpm.
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by jimmothershead  -  11/09/2007 02:24 AM
Betcha got a $69, 1300 cfm pusher on there ??

JIm
Jim [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Huntingtown, Maryland
 
Posted by dixie  -  11/09/2007 02:48 AM
Almost forgot what make temp gauge you have in car?
jim grace [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] dade city, Florida Charter Member since January 2006
 
Posted by Rods & Customs by Leon  -  11/09/2007 02:52 AM
Well, I guess with all the different ideas and options theres plenty of information to fix it, but where do you start......Cooling can be a combinations of several things and anything outside the ideal setup it will add to the temp. It looks and sounds like there is more than one issue.

The best way to fix it is to stop guessing at possibilities start all over and setup everything like it should be, and then if it don't cool, Then theres a problem. Right now it not a problem, Its just not setup right.

It needs a shroud, and it probably needs more CFMs from the fan....It might even help to add a small one on the condensor that operates with the A/C. Not to mention Distilled water, Fix the Possible colapsing hose, which I doubt would be an issue on this car because hes probably not running it hard enough to cause that. Yes timing can be a factor but I think that would be noticed in the way the car runs, and if it running pretty good I don't think it would build that much heat unless it had the other problems as well. One good example is on this 62 Impala I just finish, In tuning this 383 I tested the timing from 8 to 30 degrees just to find the sweetest running setting in variouse driving conditions. I never had the slightest variation in temp the entire time regaudless if it set ideling for 1/2 hour, Crusing the freeway or just gettting out and hammering on it for a while. The temp stayed at 180 to 190 no mater what. My advantage is perfect Air flow, and if you don't have a good airflow setup you will magnify any problems. If its not setup right, It will never be fixxed
Rods & Customs by Leon [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Highlands, Texas Charter Member since May 2004
 
Posted by BigAlBre  -  11/09/2007 03:14 AM
I read somewhere that a fan mounted above the engine to blow down and blow hot air out of the engine compartment worked pretty good At Dixie's urging I put a 18.25 inch flex-lite mechanical fan on my car and now it runs almost too cool of course it's not july/august yet... that will be the real test.... I was tempted to move the a/c condenser underneath the car with it's own shroud and fan but I got a call from one of the a/c vendors saying that was not a good idea.... that the condenser is more efficient in front of the radiator... lot's of suggestions in this thread so work out a plan that will get the maximum air flow across the radiator fins and you will solve your problem....
Big Al sittin back pickin & grinning in paradise. [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Saint Petersburg Beach, Florida Charter Member since June 1999
 
Posted by zinski3  -  11/09/2007 01:35 PM
I'm so confused!...................................... I want to thank all for their help in confusing my poor little pea brain!. It seems everyone has different ideas on cooling vehicles and all make sense.

Jim, the fan is a 2750cfm fan. Jim, I am running Classic gauges. Leon, looking at the pictures, do you really think those small areas that are open, are not forcing enough air through the radiator going down the highway? why would it cool down when idling........at least to a better temp? I notices that when it is hot, it has that advanced timimg crank when starting, so that will be the first thing I check. It is also the easiest. After that, I will probably look at a shroud to see if that helps. I was hoping to avoid moving the auxilary coolers to under the car because I have the kind of luck that if there is a way to damage it going down the road....... I can do it. With the gearing I have, I don't believe running down the highway, I am running it that hard. Hopefully I can get some of that done soon and let you guys know. I probably won't be seeing those 100 degree days for quite a while now but it suppposed to be up to 70 this weekend. If I can get at least get some of it done this weekend, I can take it out for a ride and see if that helps any. Got to gte the boat and jetski out and put them away beore the cold weather sets it. Thanks again for all the help. Worst case scenario is if you see the Buick on the side of the road on your way to the Nationals in Springfield next year.......................... bring lots of water!:-)
zinski3 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Edwards, Missouri Charter Member since December 2000
 
Posted by DavyJ  -  11/09/2007 07:03 PM
With all that room up front, why not put on a good flex fan and moutn the electric fan in front to push only when needed? Mechanical fans always work more efficiently than electric, and its one less thing to go wrong.
Still driving the wife's car, cause I am slow. [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Niagara Falls, Canada Charter Member since February 2005
 
Posted by Rods & Customs by Leon  -  11/10/2007 01:36 PM
As I mentioned, your timing may be part of you problem, But when this thread started it was heating up when you slowed down and then as it goes and it heated up as it set idle, and then would drop when you open the hood. Then after a few diagnoses it the gains temp when on the highway.

Basicly reading this entire thread it really sounds like everything may be combined problem.

Cooling some streerods is dificult enough even when everything is done perfect, So if you step back and look at all of it I think you might need to fix the tuning as well as the cooling system.

with all the variations in the problem the responses here has covered just about every possible cure.

Work on your tuning first and get the motor functioning right, If it gets to hot after that change to Distilled water and make sure the lower hose isn't colapsing see if that helps, If it still heats up move to the air flow issue "Fan and shroud.

As far as the sections on the radiator not utilizing the fan, That looks to be about 30% of you radiator and Yes that will make a big differance, Feel the air coming out of you fan and how much heat it disipates, That same heat is building in those corners and your fan is trying to cool that as well as the motor. Anything you can do to cool it will help.
Rods & Customs by Leon [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Highlands, Texas Charter Member since May 2004
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  11/10/2007 02:08 PM
i'm with leon, timing and lower hose are the only things to create heat at hwy speeds. vac advance not working is a sure way to heat up on the hwy. on the lower hose you can put several extra hose clamps on it to find out. if the hose cant flatten out it cant close.

a super lean carb will cause it but it should show other signs. lean at idle is one thing, lean at 2500 rpm is another.
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by zinski3  -  11/10/2007 02:11 PM
Thanks to all for your help. I will take this step by step as suggested. It may take quite a while though. I went to check and set the timing and found no timing indicator on the block. All I can see is a wire sticking out and no indents for my degree calibrations. It showed, what I believe to be, advanced from this mark with the timing light. I bumped it so it is more advanced and it is harder to crank over when hot. I am going to have to pull the belts off and get in there and clean it up and see what I can find. When I bumped it up the engine rpm went up but the thing was hard to start. Maybe the guy that had it, used this wire to set it at correct time(10 BTDC) and I am already too far advacnced. Will let you know what I find. I will try bumping it a bit closer to the wire and see if that helps.
zinski3 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Edwards, Missouri Charter Member since December 2000
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  11/10/2007 02:44 PM
go to napa or autozone and pick up a timing tab. measure the balancer first. then you can set it. sounds like you are not getting advance.
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by lenbeal  -  11/10/2007 05:27 PM
I just installed my 3rd Cooling components fan and shroud. I use a walker radiator, of course they are the same company. But the key to cooling is a shroud that cover the full back of the radiator, 2700 cfm should do it well. But one problem is the amount of water you have in the car. Sounds elementry but is it full. All of the cars that I use cooling components have been streed rods. They have all run about 185 to 195. One questing does the heater work well all the time. If not you will have a lack of water in the cooling system. One persons opinion
flyingb [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] harrogate, Tennessee
 
Posted by zinski3  -  11/11/2007 02:44 PM
Len, rad is full and I have good heat all the time. Set the timing back to the indicator. Hopefully will take a run into town today to pick up an indicator tab. Shine, checked the timing while it was running and as the rpm's increased, the timing marked moved further advanced. With the mark were it is now, the car turned over and started right up, without the pause you get between crankings, when it is too far advanced. Would you get the same pause if it is too retarded? Hopefully the parts store will have the tab. Lots of horseshoes and farm stuff there. Gonna stop and pick up eggs for the wife to make pumpkin bread. Need something to calm my nerves from all the frustrations:-)
zinski3 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Edwards, Missouri Charter Member since December 2000
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  11/11/2007 02:59 PM
slow crank either way. seems you can rule out timing. anything from 4 to 16 degrees advanced will run ok and not heat up. do the lower hose next.
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by zinski3  -  11/11/2007 07:23 PM
Latest update for " As the Buick Turns". About 70 degrees today. 20 degrees hotter than when I started the post. Took the car out today with the timing set back to the pointer that is mounted. Ran about 180 for 12 miles up and down th e hills. Got on a stretch and got on it a couple times to check a setting I made on the kickdown. Ran up to about 190-193 at 60MPH for a 7 mile stretch. Fan never came on. Stopped in town, got a timing tab, and a couple other things. They didn't have a bottom hose. Started it up and it was around 220-230. Fan on. started heading back home and temp went back to 190-193. Tried putting the air on and it went up to 205 going down the road and stayed there for 12 miles. Turned the air off and ran the rest of the way home at 190-193. When I got close to home. slowed down to 20-25mph. Temp went up to 210. Fan kicked on. Came down to around 195. Pulled in the driveway and let it idle for 15 minutes. Sat at 220. Kinda tells me a shroud may help at the low speeds.

Looks like I will attach the timing tab and make sure of the setting. May put a couple clamps on the hose to verify that part. Looking like a shroud may be added over the winter. Other than that, I am at a loss pf what else to do. Probably won't know for sure until next summer when it gets hot again. Thanks again.
zinski3 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Edwards, Missouri Charter Member since December 2000
 
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