Seen this post on another form...looking for some sound and heat shield for inside the car.
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Seen this post on another form...looking for some sound and heat shield for inside the car.
Posted: August 20 2007 11:12 PM
 
Tony Jones (aka Tony57) [ View ] [ tjones81@charter.net ] [ Car Ads ] [ Blogs ]
Hillsboro, Missouri
 
Since RB's Obsolete had the Cool-Car ceramic insulation on backorder and did not inform me after 3 weeks of waiting on it I have done some research. Seems all the high priced ceramic paint on insulating materials aka Lizard Skin, Cool-Car and such are a simple mixture of an exterior latex paint with ceramic micro spheres added to it. Having been a radio control aircraft enthusiast I have used ceramic spheres mixed with epoxy to form various fillets on model aircraft. I would buy these ceramic spheres (Micro Balloons is what they are called) in bulk from either Aircraft Spruce or Wicks Aircraft Supply. A gallon bag of the spheres cost about $6.00. You can see the potential cost savings here. A one gallon pail of exterior latex house paint, add some Micro Balloons to it and you basically have the same thing as Lizard Skin or Cool-Car for a mere fraction of the price. A 2 gallon pail of Lizard Skin is about $160
 
Comments
 
Posted by Tony57  -  08/20/2007 11:15 PM
Will have to play with the amount to add to a gallon of exterior latex. That will depend on what application method I choose to use (brush, roller, or spray). To get it thin enough to spray may require several coats. I am thinking a gallon bag of Micro Balloons will be enough for three or more gallons of paint. The Gun advertised on RB's site is basically an undercoating gun that you can buy from Harbor Freight for less than $15.
Tony57 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Hillsboro, Missouri
 
Posted by Tony57  -  08/20/2007 11:22 PM
Exterior latex will work exceptionally well. After it is dry it is impervious to water, just like it would be on your house.


Glad you liked the way it worked, saved me a ton of money vs the brand name.
Tony57 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Hillsboro, Missouri
 
Posted by tlp1968  -  08/20/2007 11:52 PM
I guess this would be a good experiment, but personally I don't want to have to redo the job if it doesn't work right. The Lizard Skin stuff works, I know it does and why mess with something that does the job it says it will.
StreetRodding.com Marketing Director [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Springfield, Illinois Charter Member since August 2003
 
Posted by Tony57  -  08/21/2007 12:13 AM
Efforts and some results


Effort: I purchased 2 one gallon bags of micro balloons fro Wicks Aircraft Supply at a cost of $13 with out shipping. Mixed one bag into a little over a quart of white Glidden semi gloss left over latex paint. This is dusty stuff so I wore a chemical mask and eye protection. I mixed the whole works by hand and got about 7/8ths gallon of material. Mixture was about as thick as thick pancake batter. I applied this mixture to the inside firewall and cowl of my 53 F-100 using a 2.5 inch nylon brush. I also applied the material the inside back wall of the cab below the rear window. I applied 3 coats to the firewall/cowl area and 2 coats to the rear cab wall. I tried to apply these coats as thick as possible allowing an hour between coats. My goal was to have the dried material as thick as a credit card. I estimate the total area covered to be about 30 sq ft and I used about 2/3s of my material. I then allowed 2 days for the material to set.


Some results and observations: There was no gloss to the dried material and it will scratch with a sharp object. I don’t think I would use it on the outside of the cab. I don’t know if it felt like petting a lizard not having an occasion to do so; however it looked like flat wall paint and definitely had more texture. We had a warm sunny day here in South Texas before Christmas, around 80 degrees, and I rolled the cab into the sun with the outside of the firewall facing the sun. After a half hour or so the outside of the firewall became hot enough that it was not comfortable leaving my hand on the outside metal. The outside of the firewall is painted with two coats of epoxy primer. Inside the firewall I could place my hand anywhere without any discomfort. It was warm but definitely not hot. I do not have a point and shoot thermometer but my Craftsman 82400 multi meter has a temperature probe which I used on both sides of the firewall. I recorded a temperature of 124 F on the outside of the firewall and 102 F on the inside at the same place. The inside back wall of the cab was also in the sun and remained cool to the touch. It did not seem to absorb any more heat than the ambient temperature. Both sides of the rear cab wall felt about the same.


I have now mixed my second batch. I bought a quart of exterior latex paint from Lowe’s mistake shelf for $1. The color was an off white a little on the beige side. This mixture came out as very dry peanut butter. Dryer than the kind you have to mix before eating. I was able to roll this mixture on the inside roof after the addition of about a pint of left over white ceiling paint. I had applied 2 coats of the remainder of the first mixture to the inside roof so that made the 3rd coat. I will add one more coat to the roof and then use the rest of the mixture on the floor. I still plan to use my Quiet Ride kit inside the cab but I believe the latex micro balloon coating to be a definite bonus. One further observation: the hollow, ringing sound when the cab wall was thumped is now changed to a dull thunk, definitely less vibration. All in all for the price and the effort, I am pleased.
Tony57 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Hillsboro, Missouri
 
Posted by Tony57  -  08/21/2007 12:13 AM
Ok im done sorry for the spam.
Tony57 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Hillsboro, Missouri
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  08/21/2007 06:34 AM
to anyone reading this.................... just use the real stuff. the site this came from also promotes lacquer paint. latex paint will do the same thing on your car that it does on your house when subjected to heat. dry out, crack and peel.
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by awsum34  -  08/21/2007 07:01 AM
I have ordered alot of parts through RB's Obsolete in the pass, but lately it seems like everything is getting back ordered.


Their losing another customer
awsum34 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Overland Park, Kansas
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  08/21/2007 08:28 AM
demand for original parts is on the decline. many parts are simply not being offered anymore. some orig ford parts are being discontinued because of high numbers to order and very little demand.
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  08/21/2007 08:46 AM
Hmmm.. microballons are just tiny plastic (fiberglass?) beads.. mixed with paint? Instead of using latex paint-- for real durabilty use elastomeric roof coating. That would be better than latex- certainly more waterproof, and should be good for 20 years or so. I may try it. Just because something is $160 a gallon doesn't mean it is world-shattering excellent. My 2 cents.
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  08/21/2007 08:54 AM
you ever see roof coating burn ?
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by burt1939  -  08/21/2007 09:32 AM
Awsum34


I have had your same experience with RB's Obsolete. They have lost another customer. This is another reason to buy from advertisers on this site.
burt1939 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] rutherfordton, North Carolina
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  08/21/2007 09:32 AM
I'm not planning to set my car on fire... (Heck half of it is wood too!!)
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by bigdude  -  08/21/2007 11:19 AM
If you guys would like to try dog poop--I got plenty! I will stick to LS- why scrimp now on something you cant fix later?
resident know it all [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Three Rivers, Michigan Charter Member since January 2004
 
Posted by tlp1968  -  08/21/2007 11:31 AM
I have seen the results of a inside car fire on the Lizard Skin site. That sold me, and yes I don't want my car to burn but if some wiring goes crazy or I have some freak accident I like the idea of not being trapped in a ball of fire. DO NOT USE PRODUCTS DESIGNED FOR ROOFING INSIDE YOUR CAR THERE IS A REASON THEY DON'T SELL IT IN THE AUTOMOTIVE SECTION. :-) Just my 02
StreetRodding.com Marketing Director [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Springfield, Illinois Charter Member since August 2003
 
Posted by 29robert  -  08/21/2007 01:07 PM
Can you use on the roof of your car? LOL
29robert [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] La Verne, California Charter Member since November 2004
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  08/21/2007 01:59 PM
I was planning for something under the carpet. Hardly a "fire-risk" area... they do happen to make non-flammable products too. Good point on the fire hazard however. I wasn't thinking about that... I guess my point is a I don't want to spend that kind of money on "high brow undercoating."
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  08/21/2007 04:55 PM
Hey Italianguy, whether or not it's "high brow", have you ever heard anyone who used Lizard Skin who regretted it? Countless builders here won't do another car without it! Just for consideration...

I probably won't put anything in my Tudor before it hits the road, but then again it'll be a few years before I get to the interior anyway. Lizard Skin will go in before the upholstery.
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  08/21/2007 04:55 PM
Hey Tony57, did the guy try any latex paint without the Styrofoam balls? I wonder if they actually make any improvement over latex alone. This guy put a lot of effort in to writing, but doesn't have much scientific process to back his findings up. Four test subjects should have been submitted: painted and untreated metal, latex coating only, latex with styrofoam ball coating, and Lizard Skin coating.

Cheap is good, don't get me wrong. BUT QUALITY DOESN'T COST, QUALITY PAYS! I certainly hope there is more science to Lizard Skin's product than typical house paint, and I expect that there is. Just my thoughts.
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  08/21/2007 03:20 PM
i will never figure out the hotrod world. guys spend tons of money on bs horsepower junk and do dads they do not need but want to use 20 dollar paint guns to shoot 30 dollar paint. sad , really sad. might as well just use bubble pop.
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  08/21/2007 04:03 PM
Crazyhorse-- I think the same thing... Guys that cram Big Blocks in cars that will never go over 50 mph. All show and no go. I'm was merely talking about undercoating under my carpet! (And that is still ages and many thousands of dollars away). Unlike you folks-- I don't have $50K to drop on a project. Mine is a weekend project.. and I plan to do it and keep it with my son as a learning experience for him. I'm not here to win the Streetrod Nationals... nor do I care to put my car back to stock (that pisses folks off too). I got a great frown from a guy in Orlando Saturday night when I told him I was "tearing all the old crap" out of my '36 to make a hot rod. MC
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  08/21/2007 04:55 PM
Whew! Wish I had 50K to throw at one car too... I don't have $25K in all four of mine.

I don't think Shine was directing that at you, more toward the people who try to find scabby work-arounds for otherwise high quality solutions with complete disregard to the final product. There's a lot of those guys around, and I've been known to try a few things like that too. Eventually, we all learn that the cheap way ends up being way more expensive than what we thought was expensive in the first place.

I was going to use my original chassis under my '31. Spent time and money boxing it, adding a new MC, brake lines, 11" GM brakes, etc. only to realize when done that I had spent all of this time and money for nothing. I ended up doing it right and buying the chassis I should have bought in the first place. Lesson learned, but I'll probably do it again.

My point is that trying latex and styrofoam isn't a BAD idea, just that if it doesn't work it's only going to create more hours and more money to do it right. I certainly would NOT have coated the interior of my pickup in the stuff without first proving to myself that my own concoction was as good as Lizard Skin, or at least good enough to suffer through the $$$ difference and never regret skimping. Does that make sense?

I withdraw my earlier comment, "Cheap is good". I said it, but it's not what I meant. "INEXPENSIVE IS GOOD", cheap will always bite you in the A$$!
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by Tony57  -  08/21/2007 04:54 PM
We have been a dealer for Lizard Skin for about two years and have had great results with the product and it does what it says. I would have to agree that after we put the $ exchange on the dollar and brokerage fees that it adds up. But when you look at this from a different approach its like this.The cost to have a shop install any other form of insulation cannot compare as you can cover about 50% more of the interior with this and you create a 100% waterproof barrier and a 20-30 degree reduction in heat at the thickness of your credit card.This is like buying 3 products for the price of one and with 0% waste,also what I like is that it does not add any thickness that affects the fit of interior panel's. When it comes to install time I would say that its half or less to other methods and twice the results. When we try to reinvent the wheel sometimes it cost more and we might not achieve the same results and we spend our hard earned money is it really worth it on the chance that we hit the formula right?And we really would not know if it was right until we had out interior in and a few hard road miles on the car so what would the cost be to remove the interior a second time to re-insulate?
Jason
Tony57 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Hillsboro, Missouri
 
Posted by Tony57  -  08/21/2007 04:49 PM
Jason

I do not think anyone was saying anything negative about Lizard Skin other than it's price. It is a great product, there is no doubt about that and it is considerably cheaper than other methods of insulation. However there is nothing mysterious or magical about it's composition. Ceramic insulation has been in the industrial arena for going on ten years now. There are numbers of insulation specific companies that offer comparable products at a considerable price savings. Being in the chemical industry with access to engineering data relating to protective coatings, it was not to difficult to do some research on ceramic insulation. Once I found out what it is I was amazed at the brilliantly simple formula and how inexpensive it is to duplicate. My suggestion was just that, a suggestion, a person can make up their own mind about what they wish to do.


Thanks for the information

Vince

__________________
Tony57 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Hillsboro, Missouri
 
Posted by Tony57  -  08/21/2007 04:57 PM
ome have expressed that maybe Lizard Skin is some magical formula specifically made for automotive use that justifies it's exorbitant price. People will believe what they want to believe and that is fine. For those that need a little more assurance that there is nothing magical about these hi tech ceramic coatings you can go online to Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions and look up product SC#1000. SC#1000 is 80% by volume microscopic glass spheres.


Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions is a NASA spin off company located in Melbourne Fla. SC#1000 is available for about $39 a gallon.
Tony57 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Hillsboro, Missouri
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  08/21/2007 05:32 PM
Correct "microballoons" are not styrofoam. They are hollow glass (or fiberglass) spheres. Hence "ceramic." My point is that Tony is probably onto something. I looked at Lizardskin's ad -- and it said "silca." Which is common beach sand (or glass). This stuff isn't rocket science. My quote is "a fool and his money are soon parted."


Shine had an important point about safety (fire!). A point I overlooked. He gets kudos for that!


I feel a little gripey-- as it is consistant with a lot of forums I have seen. It seems the old timers want it to be their way or the highway, and the way they always have done it is the only way. I personally think forums should be helpful and especially help out the newbies (i'm one to classic cars, but not automobiles as a whole). I think sometime folks loose focus. I have posted a number of questions here already and have gotten very limited reponses. I doubt seriously the experience of the folks here is that lacking. It makes me feel like I have to "Snatch the pebble from my hand young Grasshopper!" Don't get me wrong as I want to stay and learn (and I am not flaming anyone in particular)! I just wish people were more helpful. I think that was 4 cents worth that time.


Regards-- Mark
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by Tony57  -  08/21/2007 08:42 PM
I was seeing what you guys would think about the post's. I will end up getting Lizard Skin.
Tony57 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Hillsboro, Missouri
 
Posted by tlp1968  -  08/21/2007 11:07 PM
Discussion is what the posts are all about. You say potatoe, I say potaaaatoe (no other way to write that) all my comments and references were just bits of information I have collected and I am happy to look at your information too. I like to learn from chemist folks, car folks, and engineers and remember while there may be only 8 people responding to this blog.....many more are lurking. :-) And some of us only pretend to be "old timers" so we are more impressive- LOL
StreetRodding.com Marketing Director [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Springfield, Illinois Charter Member since August 2003
 
Posted by awsum34  -  08/22/2007 06:50 AM
Discussion are good, That's how we learn. (do's, don'ts, tips, idea's etc,etc) I've learned alot from here good and bad.

Some times we want to so something but need that little extra push (voice) to tell us to go ahead or don't. (yes i still hear voices)


These boards is like a car show. We seat and talk (bs) car talk. but we are seating at home or shop instead.
awsum34 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Overland Park, Kansas
 
Posted by tlp1968  -  08/22/2007 09:33 AM
So check out the latest show pics and turn on your favorite music and "presto!" you are away from the daily grind if only for a minute....(that only works until you retire I guess)
StreetRodding.com Marketing Director [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Springfield, Illinois Charter Member since August 2003
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  08/22/2007 10:00 AM
I understand guys. Appreciate the forum!


Tony, your project looks great-- I WISH I could be that far along! I really want to get my frame done so I can get my parts car out of my garage and have some room to work. As it is I have to wheel stuff in and out-- makes for a long day. What shifter is that? I want to do a long shifter like that on my 4L60E so I can hopefully mount it in the stock location in the floor.


MC
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  08/22/2007 10:55 AM
maybe, just maybe the old timers have done enough to figure out what works. if you paid me to insulate your car i'm sure you would be tickled pink to know i used house paint , right ? wrong, you would be raising all kinds of hell. any of you notice that fewer and fewer of the quote old timers are posting now days. most of the builders do not. we do not get paid for trying to help and it is getting to the point that it is purely a waste of our time. after all , all it takes is a streetrodder magazine and master charge .
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  08/22/2007 11:22 AM
Hey Tammy, I didn't know you were a Dan Quayle fan!
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by bigdude  -  08/22/2007 12:10 PM
Shine you are right on with that! Some times I get frustrated answering the same question every month or so,then getting an opinion from someone that heard something else! But this is the sport that I love and enjoy and if I know a answer to a question someones gonna hear it!
resident know it all [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Three Rivers, Michigan Charter Member since January 2004
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  08/22/2007 12:17 PM
Hey, at least we haven't had the question "can I put my 1911 Essex on a Ford Ranger frame?" lately...
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by burt1939  -  08/22/2007 12:40 PM
Shine, You are right on 100%.
burt1939 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] rutherfordton, North Carolina
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  08/22/2007 12:49 PM
Well Shine-- I've asked a number of questions and gotten no responses. Probably because giving out the information might not make the shop owners any money (we don't get paid) or "be a waste of my time." I think that sucks. That speaks volumes to me. If you don't care to help newbies, then why are you here? To pick up business when they fail? Hardly the spirit of the hobby.


I have questions specific to the '36 Master frame vs. the '35 Master frame, advice on boxing a '36 frame, I would like measurements for a Mustang II front end (OEM is fine), and I'm sure I will have plenty others before I'm done. Feel free to step up and try to help.


Mark
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by 31tudor  -  08/22/2007 12:57 PM
Mark, that was completely unnecessary. Shine has helped more people "for free" than you could ever imagine. he's not here to make money, he's here for the camaraderie and for the hobby. Shine has selflessly done more for this site's forum than any other.

Maybe "newbies" don't get respect because they fire off their mouths without having an understanding of "who's done what" on a site. Besides, you're building an uncommon car that few people know specifics on. I commend you for that. You don't demand answers from people who don't know them, but would be willing to help if they did. You should have learned that as a child.

I suggest you find a new home.
Eric Hibbs [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] St. George, Utah Charter Member since January 2002
 
Posted by whipsold39  -  08/22/2007 12:57 PM
This is starting to get interesting. I just hope it don't run people off.
whipsold39 [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] 400 9th ave silvis 61282, Illinois Charter Member since January 2006
 
Posted by Italianguy63  -  08/22/2007 12:58 PM
That is a fair response. Hey, maybe I am doing something tough... and could use some help. But be careful before you kick this dog. I'm not a moron, and I won't be treated like I am ill informed. I'm sure there is plenty I don't know-- but there is plenty I do know too,
Speed is about how fast do you want to spend! [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] Bartow, Florida
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  08/22/2007 01:03 PM
come on now. this is too much pork. mark needs help and he did ask nicely. mark i have never worked on a 36 chevy in my life. cant help with that part but i'll help anywhere i have the right answer . to be honest i'm still a little bitchy from that stupid lacquer paint thread a grain of salt. now somebody get their butt out in the garage and get the measurements somebody has to have a 36 chevy.


and for the record i no longer work for the public , it's my turn to build my way !
dont poke the porchdog........he bites [ View ] [ Email ] [ Blogs ] [ Car Ads ] BLUFF DALE, Texas Charter Member since March 2003
 
Posted by Crazyhorse Rod Shop  -  08/22/2007 01:05 PM